Notes from Megameeting 8th September 2008


BruceAmbacher UM
HelenTibbo UNC
KatiaThomaz INPE, Brazil
MarieWaltz Center for Research Libraries
RobertDowns CIESIN, Columbia University

Progress made: The glossary of terms proposed by RobertDowns was reviewed.

RobertDowns >> (All): Perhaps it would be valuable to review the new Glossary terms that I proposed.
Marie Waltz >> (All): Sounds good
KatiaThomaz >> (All): ok for me
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Location?
RobertDowns >> (All):
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Thanks.  I have them up to toggle 
Marie Waltz >> (All): Should we just start with the first one? Access Policy: Written statement authorized by the repository management that describes the approach to be taken by the repository for providing access to objects accessioned into the repository 
KatiaThomaz >> (All): i have a question.. we have user and consumer. are both of them necessary?
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Should this one (and others) make any short-term, long-term references?
RobertDowns >> (All): The Preservation Strategic Plan refers to both long-term and short-term plans.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): User/consumer - is this a slip of language to use synonymous terms or does someone want to make a clear distinction between them and their roles?
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Robert - yes that is why I thought we should consider if it is desirable for other terms.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): the same thing with producer and provider...
RobertDowns >> (All): Generally, plans can differentiate between long-term and short-term plans. 
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Katia, I can see a difference between a producer and a provider.  They easily could be separate entities 
RobertDowns >> (All): A provider might be submitting a SIP on behalf of the producer.
Marie Waltz >> (All): So a provider is a sort of subset of producers?
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Robert - I agree.  But do we need to highlight such differences?  Short-term strategies could be to keep objects in curren, dependent formats while long-term could be to migrate to a hw.sw independent platform.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): but the distiction producer-provider is really necessary?
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Provider could be a subset or a totally different party.  For example a producer may not be permitted toe xpose its systems to a third party.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): another question... does preservation policy include access policy?
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Katia,   I can believe there will be instances where it is desirable to be able to show A produced the data but you got it from B.  That establishes the provenance of the object.
RobertDowns >> (All): For the draft definition of Preservation Strategic Plan, would it be helpful to replace the words "be differentiated in terms of" with the word "include"?
KatiaThomaz >> (All): OAIS RM says the provenance comes from producer BruceAmbacher >> (All): Katia.  I would keep preservation and access separate.  They are in OAIS.  There may be instances where a repository does not have to/is not permitted to provide access but it does have a long-term preservation mission.  Or the objects may be restricted for an extended period.
Marie Waltz >> (All): I think incldue works 
Marie Waltz >> (All): sorry, include works better 
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Katia, OAIS is correct but you must show that continuous chain of custody which may be through another party that provides the object to the repository.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): i am not sure about those questions... we should think better because more words more confusion...
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Robert, I accept changing to include.
RobertDowns >> (All): I will replace the words "be differentiated in terms of" with "include".
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Katia, A real example is the US 1900 Census of Agriculture.  The US National Archives has a printed version from the Dept. of Ag.  It also has a digital version created under an NSF grant and transferred by that grantee, not the Dept. of Ag.
RobertDowns >> (All): Knowing who submitted the SIP allows the repository to contact them for additional information or clarification about the submission.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): an archive can have more than one producer 
BruceAmbacher >> (All): It also alerts the user to the origins (and reliability) of the data.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Katia, Absolutely.  And each producer should be identified.  I have found that yout confidence in a producer varies producer to producer and even data set to data set from the same producer.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Back to the glossary.  Does anyone have any other suggested changes or concerns?
RobertDowns >> (All): The words "be differentiated in terms of"  have been replaced by the word "include". Refreshing the browser should display the change.
Marie Waltz >> (All): Do we still have the user/consumer question?
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Yes
KatiaThomaz >> (All): again i think we should keep it simple...
Marie Waltz >> (All): I find this confusing: . This can include other OAISs, as well as internal OAIS persons or systems. 
BruceAmbacher >> (All): User is in the "Candidate List" and consumer is in the OAIS list.  What is the origin of the candidate list?  If it is Robert, then we can consider deleting it.
RobertDowns >> (All): I am open to any suggestions.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Marie - what do you find confusing?  What are you referring to? Is the last part a quote?  from where?
Marie Waltz >> (All): It is from the consumer definition, I don't realyl know what is meant by "other OAIS's", is it other OAIS repositories/services?
KatiaThomaz >> (All): i suggest we consider if the new words can contribute to better understanding 
Marie Waltz >> (All): Yes and if they are defining something new.
RobertDowns >> (All): The word "user" appears in section B over a dozen times.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Marie, I see it in the OAIS consumer definition.  It refers to when an OAIS creates a new object as a result of migration or other preservation action and must re-ingest the object - it must offer the new object to itself to formally establish control over a different, derived object.  The OAIS to OAIS covers automated pushes or pulls of data, or the transfer under a plan of succession 
Helen Tibbo >> (All): Sorry to be joining late. People hunted me down in my office just before I logged on.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Welcome Helen.  Now you know the value of a closed door and not answering a knock.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): hi helen
RobertDowns >> (All): Hi Helen, we are review the new Glossary terms at
Helen Tibbo >> (All): Yes, I just hadn't gotten it closed...
Helen Tibbo >> (All): Of course, everything is a crisis BruceAmbacher >> (All): We are discussing  whether to use consumer from OAIS or user from the new glossary terms and its use 12 times in section B.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Robert, would it change any meanings if we used consumer in those 12 places?  We also must consider how closely we must adhere to OAIS and the impact of deviating.  Do we really mean anything differnt when we use user rather than consumer?  Or is it just a different language style?
Helen Tibbo >> (All): so that's "consumer" in the glossary?
BruceAmbacher >> (All): yes
Helen Tibbo >> (All): I didn't find "user" in the glossary just now.
Marie Waltz >> (All): Its at the top, there are ten new glossary entries Helen Tibbo >> (All): Oh, I see, we use it in the text but it's not in the glossary or OAIS 
Helen Tibbo >> (All): Oh 
RobertDowns >> (All): I just counted. We use the word "user" 38 times in section B. I do not know whether we can replace "user" with "consumer" in every instance.
Marie Waltz >> (All): How is a user different than a consumer?
KatiaThomaz >> (All): According OAIS RM, an archive can interact with three entities: producer, consumer and management Marie Waltz >> (All): And they are all users, aren't they?
KatiaThomaz >> (All): so if we define other entities the sould be part of one of them BruceAmbacher >> (All): Management and Administration may/may not be users/consumers Helen Tibbo >> (All): User is a generic term that isn't very specific and in that sense is bad but it is THE term people (those who will read the stand) use. So this is problematic.
RobertDowns >> (All): Do we know why the word "user" has been used excessively, instead of consumer?
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Helen, we are getting back to a basic issue when developing OAIS.  The glossary is there to begin a cross-walk between its language and that used in other communities.
Helen Tibbo >> (All): I would say that producers and managment can be users as well as consumers (end users).
RobertDowns >> (All): I agree that users could include producers and management as well as submitters and auditors and robots, etc.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Robert, it may be as simple as the fact that we are a less scientific group overall than the group that produced OAIS.  I was the only archivist for a few years.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Helen, I wrote "may/may not"  I agree with you.  But their role is not always as a consumer.
Marie Waltz >> (All): So is a user anyone or thing that works with the repository in any way?
KatiaThomaz >> (All): OAIS RM separated the concepts for understanding. the same person can act as one or other 
Helen Tibbo >> (All): I think "consumers" in the access sense are a subset of all "users."
Helen Tibbo >> (All): We might want to say "users" is a general term and users can assume many or multiple roles such as...
KatiaThomaz >> (All): OAIS RM chose consumer 
BruceAmbacher >> (All): I think we should have astrong logic for introducing a new term that competes with an OAIS Glossray term.  I have not heard it articulated or heard a suggestion where consumer would not work in scetion B.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): yes
Marie Waltz >> (All): Robert, you looked at how the word was used in TRAC before creating the definition, did you think was there anything that could not be covered by the "consumer" definition?
RobertDowns >> (All): I had seen some instances where the word "user" could not simply  be replaced with the word "consumer". However, I also do not know why "user" has been used so extensively instead of consumer and other terms from OAIS.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): we have both options: introduce new word into the glossary or replace the word into TRAC
BruceAmbacher >> (All): I suspect we just slipped into language more comfortable to our disciplines.  In developing TRAC we made an effort to not be 100% tied to OAIS language and terms 
BruceAmbacher >> (All): I suggest we we substitute consumer and see what we have to do in those places it does easily substitute.
KatiaThomaz >> (All): ok
Marie Waltz >> (All): I agree
BruceAmbacher >> (All): Does anyone know how to capture the thread for Simon?
Marie Waltz >> (All): I do and I can
RobertDowns >> (All): I will delete the definition of User from the Candidate Glossary Entries.
BruceAmbacher >> (All): ok
Helen Tibbo >> (All): I agree use consumer 
Marie Waltz >> (All): Yes 
KatiaThomaz >> (All): yes 
RobertDowns >> (All): yes 
BruceAmbacher >> (All): I must go now.
Marie Waltz >> (All): Bye all
KatiaThomaz >> (All): next think about the relation between producer-provider and preservation policy-access policy 
KatiaThomaz >> (All): have a nice week. bye.
Helen Tibbo >> (All): bye; I'll be away next week but MAY be able to join.

-- SimonLambert - 11 Sep 2008

Topic revision: r1 - 2008-09-11 - SimonLambert
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